In this episode, we dive into the challenging realities of navigating narcissistic abuse, coercive control and domestic violence, particularly within the family court system, and how important it is that survivors of these situations find a like-minded community to heal within. Our guest, Sybil Cummin, MA, LPC, ACS, shares her journey into this field, explaining how her work as a play therapist with children revealed systemic issues that fail to protect families. We discuss the impact of coercive control on mental health, the misperceptions surrounding abuse like how abuse doesn't discriminate whether you have a good education and wealth, and the devastating effects on protective parents—predominantly mothers—who are often dismissed or vilified.
The conversation highlights the importance of understanding abuse in all the ways it shows up (it's not just overt) beyond physical violence, addressing the role of community in healing, and offering support to survivors as they navigate the complexities of safety, trauma recovery, and rebuilding their lives. Most importantly, we explore strategies to help survivors develop trust, autonomy, and resilience in systems that frequently fall short of providing protection or justice.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
The pervasive myths about domestic violence and the reality of coercive control.
How systemic biases in family court harm protective parents and children.
The importance of community and connection in the healing process.
Strategies for survivors to rebuild their trust and sense of self.
The delicate balance of sharing one’s story without shame or comparison.
Resources Mentioned:
https://www.risingbeyondpc.com
https:// instagram.com/risingbeyondpc
https://www.risingbeyondpc.com/podcasts
Sybil's Canned Responses Freebie: https://mailchi.mp/risingbeyondpc/freebie
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09:09:59 Okay. Sounds good.
09:10:03 Okay, I guess it's recording already. Okay.
09:10:08 Well back to redefining us. I'm your host, Stephanie. Contra license professional. And today I have with me Sybil Cummins, who specializes in working with survivors.
09:10:20 And their children from narcissistic abuse. So thank you so much for joining us. And yeah, welcome.
09:10:28 Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
09:10:31 Yeah. So let's just like dive in what kind of inspires you to do this work. And why are you.
09:10:38 So passionate about continuing, working with population.
09:10:42 Yeah. So I started from a different way than a lot of the advocates and therapists that work in this field of narcissistic abuse and domestic violence, and that I'm not a survivor of.
09:10:56 And so I started at it from working with the kids.
09:11:00 And I would see these family dynamics, and they were always deemed like.
09:11:06 Air quotes high conflict, divorce, families.
09:11:10 And what I really saw was these were actually abusive.
09:11:14 There's there's abuse in these families.
09:11:17 And there was a very specific.
09:11:20 Type of abuse. One of the partners would have traits of narcissism.
09:11:25 And so the reason I became passionate about it is.
09:11:30 That I was noticing specifically that our family court system was not.
09:11:34 Like keeping kids safe. And they didn't actually seem to care that they're not keeping kids safe, and that.
09:11:40 Is ridiculous, right? Like I couldn't. I didn't understand it. I couldn't understand that. And so.
09:11:47 I, if I don't understand something, I just dive in.
09:11:49 Like. I just go, you know, down the rabbit hole, trying to figure things out.
09:11:55 And so I really.
09:11:57 Saw the dynamics within our larger systems that were happening. How protective parents and I work mostly with moms. I do work with some.
09:12:07 Males in in our practice, but.
09:12:10 In a community that I run. It's specifically for women.
09:12:14 And I just could not.
09:12:15 Wrap my head around. How horrible these protective moms are treated.
09:12:20 And so, in order to help the kiddos, I also need to help.
09:12:25 The protective parents in these situations. And so that's really how I got involved is.
09:12:31 To help families be safe in a system where.
09:12:35 They're not gonna get the support that they need.
09:12:40 And I imagine it's really.
09:12:42 Both devastating and raging.
09:12:45 When you consider that the court system doesn't do a lot to protect.
09:12:50 The the families in these cases.
09:12:53 Yeah. And there's this belief, right? That, okay, I'm gonna leave this relationship. And it's all gonna be better.
09:12:59 And I'm going to be safer. And there are these people in place to help me and my child.
09:13:06 And a lot of the people that are put in place to do that. That's actually not their role.
09:13:12 That's supposed to be their role. And that's not what happens.
09:13:17 Gotcha, so.
09:13:19 It's almost like this false sense of security that a lot of maybe women.
09:13:25 Enter into when they decide to leave the relationship, and it turns out that it's.
09:13:29 Maybe just more of the same. It sounds like.
09:13:31 Yeah, it's like the abuse looks different, because maybe their partner doesn't have access to them in the home. Maybe they've left.
09:13:42 But they will use these other methods and other.
09:13:46 Ways in the system to continue to abuse. And what's sad is so many of the.
09:13:51 Women and men that I've worked with actually don't even know that they are being abused.
09:13:58 Because the belief that is out there, the myths that are out there is that domestic violence and abuse is like hitting.
09:14:05 Or, you know, throwing things, or choking, or.
09:14:10 Though, like that is domestic violence, and that's actually not.
09:14:15 All of domestic violence, and so they don't even understand a lot of times that they are being abused because it is the more coercive.
09:14:24 Type behaviors that.
09:14:26 That are happening.
09:14:28 Yeah, I know a lot of times in my practice when I'm giving supervision to other clients or not. Other clients, otheries who work with more of this population.
09:14:48 Yeah.
09:14:39 Even just identifying that they're being abused can be really shocking to the client that you're working with. It's like, what do you mean? No, they're not hitting me or no, they're not doing this, but.
09:14:51 Yeah, if they're controlling your money, controlling the way that you parenting where, when you leave the house, or you know, have an opinion about literally everything that you do, and try to convince you to do.
09:15:03 Something different, or to do it the way that they want to do it.
09:15:08 Yeah. Yeah. And like, isolation is probably one of the most common and.
09:15:14 Tactics of an abuser, and so.
09:15:17 Yeah, there.
09:15:19 They don't understand. They've been abused because it doesn't fit the stereotype of abuse, and they don't fit the stereotype.
09:15:26 Of a victim right there. And this is geographic.
09:15:32 Differences. But here in Colorado.
09:15:34 I would say, the stereotypical victim of domestic violence is.
09:15:42 Low income, low education, woman.
09:15:45 You know many children.
09:15:48 Blue collar. Husband comes home, he drinks a beer, and he beats her.
09:15:53 And that is not even remotely close like, can that happen? Yes, sure. But that's not what it looks like. It doesn't.
09:16:02 Unfortunately narcissistic abuse domestic funds. They don't discriminate.
09:16:05 So it doesn't matter how much money you earn. You have where you live.
09:16:12 If you have children, or don't have children.
09:16:16 It is possible.
09:16:18 Yeah, yeah, I think that's really important for people to be aware of is that it could happen at any socioeconomic status or any demographic it's doesn't look just one way.
09:16:31 Yeah, yeah. And so when they 1st a lot of times get that.
09:16:35 Like understanding, or it's it's like written on paper, or a therapist suggests it, or something like that. It is.
09:16:42 Shocking! It's.
09:16:44 A lot of them don't want to believe that because it they have right. They have these ideas about what that means about them.
09:16:51 And it actually means nothing about you. It means that you chose someone who chose to abuse you.
09:16:56 That's what it. That's what it means.
09:16:58 And so you know, taking away some of that shame, and that.
09:17:04 Guilt and the false responsibility that they've put on you.
09:17:10 Is.
09:17:11 You know 1 1 of the steps of kind of moving through that.
09:17:15 Yeah, I imagine for the over responsible woman, it's very easy to put.
09:17:22 All of the blame on themselves. And also now, especially if there's children involved like, there's maybe even a greater level of like responsibility that they.
09:17:31 May find themselves feeling.
09:17:34 Yeah. Compelled to take on.
09:17:37 Yeah, absolutely. And then they've been told that it's all their fault in different ways, either through gas lighting or overt, you know, behaviors or statements. And so over time, you start to believe it.
09:17:51 If you do have a history in your family of origin, and it doesn't have to be abuse in your family of origin. But there's a history of.
09:17:59 Kind of people pleasing to stay safe, taking ownership of things that are not yours.
09:18:04 You're more likely to.
09:18:07 Accept that responsibility for it.
09:18:10 And then, yeah, when you have.
09:18:11 Kiddos. All you want to do is you want to keep them safe?
09:18:15 And and take care of them, and you're put in a position where they're not safe.
09:18:22 Yeah, yeah.
09:18:23 So I know you do a lot of work with the survivors, both like in the court system as well as like in therapy office.
09:18:32 I'm curious like, does your work primarily just.
09:18:37 Focus on identification and like ways to stay safe. Or what other things are you working on with these people?
09:18:44 Yeah. So there's just a constant of safety throughout the whole process, because.
09:18:50 Unfortunately.
09:18:52 Harm can come like physical harm can come.
09:18:56 At any time, and I don't ever say that to scare people
09:19:00 And it's just something to be really aware of that they may have never been physical with you before, and it can happen.
09:19:08 So. Yes, I work with, you know, on that safety piece, and keeping people safe.
09:19:13 And the more fun part of my job.
09:19:18 Is working with survivors to.
09:19:23 Kind of learn how to work in that world, because there is. If you share children with your abuser.
09:19:29 You 9 times out of 10 are gonna have to have contact with them.
09:19:32 And so how do you kind of live with that and keep that contact.
09:19:37 And stay healthy and mentally healthy.
09:19:40 At the same time, that's that's really difficult. So it is. It's like that healing from the trauma, relearning how to trust yourself, relearning how to connect with other people, especially if there's that isolation.
09:19:53 You have no trust in your trust, detector, because you trusted this person who said they were your soul mate.
09:20:01 Right, and you've truly believed it.
09:20:04 You. You did believe it, and you love this person. You loved this person, and to learn that that was a scam.
09:20:12 And they didn't ever feel the same way.
09:20:17 That's really hard. So you feel like your person detector is completely messed up.
09:20:24 And so it really is like learning how to yourself again, learning how to.
09:20:29 Figure out who you are again, because something that's.
09:20:33 Stripped away from you is your sense of self and your autonomy.
09:20:36 And so those are the much more fun things to work on than safety and family court. But we do them in tandem because you.
09:20:46 You can't really do one without the other.
09:20:51 Yeah, it? I.
09:20:54 I'm kind of getting the sense that even if someone's like in the midst of.
09:20:59 The trauma. It might be harder to work on that, but hopefully, when things stabilize even
09:21:06 Small percentage, some of the empowerment redefining who they are outside of the relationship.
09:21:12 How they can reconnect with their community is still important to be doing like at the same time.
09:21:18 Yeah. And what I've really seen, this is why I started. The rising beyond community is.
09:21:24 That, you know, in my practice, my therapy practice, I would have really similar cases, and the cases in which.
09:21:31 The person. The survivor had a pretty strong, healthy support system.
09:21:37 Versus the person who had almost identical case.
09:21:43 Abuse.
09:21:46 The ones that do not have.
09:21:48 Safe people in their world. They don't have a support network. The length of time it takes them to heal is astronomically longer.
09:21:57 And so like years longer. And so I was seeing this over and over again, and so that importance of healing within connection with others. Healing in a community was so apparent.
09:22:13 Because it was like, well, what's you know? Like what's wrong with this person? They're not healing, is it me as a therapist? Is it them? And no.
09:22:20 It's none of the above. It was.
09:22:23 The lack of connections with others.
09:22:26 And so that that piece of it is really important. And for survivors that is the scariest thing to do.
09:22:33 Is to connect with others.
09:22:35 Well, yeah, it takes a certain level of vulnerability, I imagine.
09:22:40 Again. Going back to that trust piece like being betrayed. Trying to open themselves up again to a community is probably very scary.
09:22:49 Yeah, absolutely. And my, most of the time they've tried to reach out to people.
09:22:55 And the.
09:22:57 Responses have been harmful. And so they've tried to maybe share with a friend about like the crazy making stuff.
09:23:05 That's been going on in their relationship.
09:23:08 And the response is, Wow! I can't even believe that he's always been so nice.
09:23:15 Yeah, so it's like, dismissive.
09:23:15 So so the response is like, No, actually, you're still the crazy one. Nope, we we don't believe you. And so there's a sense of.
09:23:24 I can't reach out to anybody, because I won't be believed.
09:23:27 Like law enforcement.
09:23:30 Doesn't believe if there is not a bruise on you.
09:23:34 There's not a scratch.
09:23:36 Law. Enforcement's not really that helpful, and doesn't believe in family court, he said. She said. They believe that it's always.
09:23:43 2 party conflict when it's not.
09:23:46 And so, yeah, that is so scary to.
09:23:49 To trust someone with your story.
09:23:51 And know that they will hold it, and they will believe you.
09:23:56 And they're not gonna shame you for what you've been through. That's really scary.
09:24:01 Yeah.
09:24:02 Well, narcissists or people who have narcissistic traits tend to be really good at masking and.
09:24:08 Oh, yeah.
09:24:09 Having a lot of charisma, and being one way.
09:24:12 In front of others in another way, behind closed doors.
09:24:18 Yep, yeah. And so it is. It's it is crazy because everyone around them sees.
09:24:23 You know the Disney, like the amazing.
09:24:26 You know, caring dad or partner.
09:24:32 And it's, you know, all done.
09:24:37 On purpose like it's willful, which is super gross to think about that. All the things that they've done is not because of.
09:24:43 Childhood trauma like. There's an element of that. But it's not the reason. It's not because they're.
09:24:49 An alcoholic. It's not these reasons. It is willful. It is done on purpose to get their needs met.
09:24:57 Yeah, it's interesting that you mentioned the community aspect. I feel like that's been a golden thread of a lot of the.
09:25:04 Things that I've been talking to people about, and the need for connection and the need for community.
09:25:14 Yeah.
09:25:10 And how healing that can be to be surrounded by other people who understand what you're going through, and are maybe in either places than you, or maybe just a little bit further along, and like learning from them, and how they can learn from you, and that like mutual.
09:25:29 Benefit that can come from being connected to others.
09:25:33 Yeah. And if you've been told that you have no worth.
09:25:37 And then you're able to help someone in a similar situation.
09:25:44 You can gain some of that right, you can see like, Oh, my gosh! That is not true. I am worth.
09:25:50 Something, and so, and rebuilding that self worth and that sense of self. It takes a long time, and so.
09:25:56 You know it's not this magic. Oh, I did this, and now I know I'm amazing, and I know that I have all this worth.
09:26:03 But it can be so helpful, and to have, I think, one of the other reasons that community is so important for this population specifically, but.
09:26:11 Almost all populations right where there's some sort of harm or hurt. Is that the person that was around you before is only mirroring back to you how much you suck.
09:26:23 Like nothing good about yourself.
09:26:26 And so then you're around these other people who are mirroring back your amazing qualities so that you can see them.
09:26:33 Because you can't see them like there's that phrase like.
09:26:36 You can't see the label when you're inside the bottle, or something of that nature.
09:26:40 And so, having these other people mirror these things back to you so you can see. Oh, wow!
09:26:44 Like. I am a good person, I have worth. I am smart, I am kind. I am empathic. All of those things. When you see.
09:26:55 Yourself through the eyes of someone else.
09:26:57 It can be really healing.
09:27:01 Yeah. And just this understanding that it's okay to have the emotions that you do, because I imagine there's a lot of emotions that are probably had in these like circles of women or this community of women, and rather than getting that feedback from maybe people who don't understand.
09:27:18 Or potentially, we've only seen one side of their partner to be like, Oh, I felt the same way with my partner, or, yeah, like, get where you're coming from. And it changes that script of like you're the crazy one to like, know? Like, this is like what's happening and make it mo feel more.
09:27:36 Yeah.
09:27:37 Yeah, like, like less crazy making and more
09:27:42 They're like truthful and.
09:27:43 I don't know what the word that I'm looking for. But yeah, kind of like.
09:27:46 When it. Yeah, it gives you the sense of.
09:27:50 Piece that you aren't the only one.
09:27:54 Right, so it it removes some of that shame.
09:27:58 That there's something wrong with you that you're crazy. And then it's interesting. When I do, you know.
09:28:04 Like live events, or, you know, support groupy type stuff.
09:28:09 And someone's talking, and every head is nodding.
09:28:13 Right, and it's like, yep. I felt that I've experienced that it is. It's so validating to.
09:28:22 No, you know, it's like, Okay, I am not crazy. This is what they do.
09:28:28 There's actually a way out of this right? It gives people hope.
09:28:33 Yeah.
09:28:34 I I will say, as long as the people around you set up a specific way, and there's like a safe container. Because sometimes you can.
09:28:41 Get around other people where it's you're only sharing the horror stories.
09:28:47 Umhm.
09:28:47 Which at times can be really helpful to hear. Hey, you're not crazy, and it can also bring you into this kind of pit of despair.
09:28:56 Too, if there's if it's only the horror stories.
09:29:10 Oh yes!
09:28:59 That, and I think another danger that sometimes would be important for people to be aware of is like comparing one person's story to your own like. Oh, my story is not as bad, or, Oh, my God! My story is so much worse, like I'm so sick, or this situation was so traumatic? Or, yeah, this like.
09:29:18 Spectrum of people who show up in communities. They can.
09:29:24 Have potentially this pitfall of comparing their story to others, and so.
09:29:29 I think that's also the importance of having, like a safe container, to explore these things in.
09:29:35 Yeah, yeah. And I, 100% agree. Cause, if you have a group of.
09:29:40 You know, 10 survivors who some have had physical abuse and sexual abuse. Some have children, some don't have children right. All of their differences.
09:29:49 And so it's like, Oh, well, my story's not as bad, because I don't have children with this person.
09:29:55 My story's not as bad, because I was not physically assaulted.
09:29:58 My story is not as bad because I have a job.
09:30:01 And I can take care of myself while they have no money, and their ex all the money.
09:30:09 So those are all different challenges that.
09:30:13 People have and have to work around, but there isn't a worse than.
09:30:17 Right. There's no like trauma is.
09:30:20 So relative, and.
09:30:23 Honestly, from what I hear over the last decade, plus from this population.
09:30:28 Is so many women, and this is even could can be harmful to women who have been physically assaulted. I wish I was hit.
09:30:37 Because then people could see it.
09:30:40 People could see a bruise and say, Yes, she's been abused.
09:30:44 But even seeing something like that to someone who has been.
09:30:48 You know, beaten.
09:30:50 Well, that doesn't feel good either. And so it is. It's it's kind of delicate when people are comparing, and I think some of it's human nature to do that comparison.
09:31:01 And if you've been an abusive relationship, you have been trained to discount your experience.
09:31:06 And to minimize what you've gone through.
09:31:09 Yeah.
09:31:08 So you're more likely to do that.
09:31:11 Because that's how you've been trained over the however long you are with your partner.
09:31:17 Yeah, I think even in maybe relationships that don't necessarily have narcissistic abuse. But just.
09:31:24 So 2 people together like don't work out. It's almost like.
09:31:34 Yeah.
09:31:29 I have had clients like. I wish I had a reason that I could tell people of why we're getting divorced or why we're breaking up. But it's just not working because of XY, and z.
09:31:40 And so it's like people I think need or seek out some sort of like dramatic event, or some specific like details, to share to others to justify, like, why they need to end a relationship.
09:31:52 But I think it's important for all listeners to hear like you can end and start any relationship.
09:31:59 Just because you want to. You don't have to have, like a long list of evidence to explain to other people, to your life.
09:32:06 Your feelings, your relationship.
09:32:07 Like, why do you have to explain it to other people?
09:32:11 Yeah, and that it's not their privilege all the time to know.
09:32:20 Yeah.
09:32:18 Right like, and so it can be hard when your partner is going to.
09:32:23 You know, create the narrative.
09:32:25 To make you look bad, and I think that happens.
09:32:29 Well, it always happens when there's abuse.
09:32:31 But even in other relationships, because people don't want to be the bad one, even though in a lot of relationships there's not a bad anyone. It just doesn't. It's just not working.
09:32:43 But we're so polarized like good, bad.
09:32:47 You know. There we're as a culture and not comfortable in the gray.
09:32:53 Yep.
09:32:52 And there's Oh, my gosh! There's so much gray.
09:32:56 Yeah, I imagine that feeds into the court system in the way that they judge things of like, oh, this is the bad party, or this is the good party, or neither party's wrong. It's both people's faults like you you mentioned. It's like, well, you know. Maybe it's both, and rather than.
09:33:15 Like yes or no.
09:33:17 Yeah, and that it's, you know, in family court. Specifically, they typically get a snapshot.
09:33:22 Right. You don't have weeks to share your story, and.
09:33:27 Unfortunately, survivors. If you're listening, you are in family court, you are gonna wanna word vomit and share the context.
09:33:36 Of the whole thing, and unfortunately it doesn't work in a family court setting. And so it is important to.
09:33:41 Support on how to share your story in a different way. Which? That's a whole nother podcast episode.
09:33:51 But it is. It's like.
09:33:52 They don't have the time to pay attention. They have their biases like, unfortunately, their biases and lack of education in family court professionals.
09:34:02 And so very it very often. It's like.
09:34:06 Actually recently. And this isn't like a.
09:34:08 Singular event, but literally just recently said, jerks can be parents too.
09:34:15 2, the protective parent where there's been.
09:34:18 Like physical abuse. There's been gross stuff right? Like that. Anyone you would think outside watching like. That's a red flag that's a concern. Maybe we should look at that. Nope.
09:34:30 Jerks can be parents, 2, 50.
09:34:34 Right. So it's like.
09:34:37 So you're.
09:34:39 Validated outside of, you know, in these larger systems a lot of times, and so.
09:34:44 It can be really hard. And then you want to share your story because you're like, no.
09:34:48 The judge thinks I'm a bad person, too, that I'm high conflict, too, that I'm the problem.
09:34:55 And you know.
09:34:56 You have to.
09:34:56 Yeah, I think that goes back to the core system needing to have like very specific evidence. Like, I.
09:35:07 I don't know. I don't want to get into bunch of.
09:35:10 Side stories here in tangents, but I do think anytime that I've had a client who's dealt with the court. It almost needs to be like.
09:35:18 So solid of an evidence.
09:35:21 Are so very like specific pieces of information that indicate, like.
09:35:26 Things need to go one way or another, and.
09:35:28 Maybe they have, like part of the evidence, or a little bit of what the court's looking for. But unless it's like outstanding.
09:35:39 Discrete, like information that the court is looking for.
09:35:43 It doesn't go the way that the person wants it to because of.
09:35:48 Yeah, yeah, and sometimes.
09:35:52 The judge's hands are tied, or your attorneys are tied.
09:35:55 Because it doesn't fit the legal.
09:35:59 Hmm.
09:36:00 Requirements for something different.
09:36:02 Yeah, that's what I think I was looking for. Thank you.
09:36:06 Thanks.
09:36:04 And so, yeah, so like.
09:36:07 Would a judge want their children to go home with your ex? No, they don't, but they don't have anything to stand on legally. And then there are some judges that literally suck and are completely biased, and make horrible decisions.
09:36:22 And so it is. It's like, so as we're, you know, going back to that thought of like community, it's so important when you are going through something so hard.
09:36:31 And the Marathon of leaving a narcissistic partner.
09:36:36 You need that support. You need that community. You need people in your world.
09:36:40 To help you. Sometimes you need to just vent.
09:36:44 And that needing a place for that. Sometimes you need logistical support like childcare.
09:36:49 Or you know.
09:36:51 Like referrals to good attorneys, or you know things like that. So.
09:36:58 That.
09:36:59 That community piece is is really helpful and is important and.
09:37:04 It can be, you know, a created community like mine, but it can be the people in your world.
09:37:09 If you have family and friends, it can be them. It can be your therapist. It can be your attorney. But don't use your attorney as your therapist. They that's really expensive, Fyi, and they're not good at it. So like. Don't do that.
09:37:23 Yes, they're not trained in that regard.
09:37:29 Hmm.
09:37:27 No, and it happens all the time. It happens all the time, because it's someone who's listening to you.
09:37:32 And if you feel like you've never been heard.
09:37:36 Like, amazing.
09:37:38 Have someone hear you.
09:37:41 Yeah, but sharing what you need to share with the.
09:37:44 People who actually are trained, or have the mental space and have the time to do that, I think, is really important, too.
09:37:52 Yes, yep. And knowing people's role.
09:37:55 Right. A therapist role is really different than the attorney's role is different than your mom's role.
09:38:00 This different. You know there's there's so many.
09:38:04 You know, different ways to look at people. And then the other thing is, you don't have to share like we're talking about before, even if you.
09:38:10 There is no abuse in your relationship, but you're just done with that relationship.
09:38:14 You do not have to share a hundred percent of your story with everybody, they don't maybe have that privilege or deserve it. And so we had. I have a client actually, who is like, you know, these people got the 50 version. These people get the 80% version you and one other person get the 100% version.
09:38:33 Because you understand the nuances or the details, and I won't. You're not judging.
09:38:39 Right. And so you get to choose.
09:38:42 How much of your story you want to share.
09:38:45 And I think that also gives.
09:38:47 Like just that dialogue in general gives the person that you're.
09:38:53 Working with potentially some more.
09:38:56 What's a good word like.
09:38:59 Trust in themselves because they can identify what's important to share with who. And they're like reestablishing like internal boundaries by doing that rather than.
09:39:11 Feeling like they don't have any control over the narrative or any control over where their life is going. They can at least have that more internal boundary, and hopefully that feels grounding.
09:39:24 Yeah.
09:39:23 To people, situation.
09:39:25 Yeah and sharing. There's something so amazing about sharing your shame stories, and I ha!
09:39:33 Like some of Renee Brown's stuff. I don't like some of the stuff, but that one piece of sharing your shame stories.
09:39:41 Is so healing.
09:39:43 And so when you can find again, you're not sharing like with the mom, you're waiting outside of school to pick your kid up, and there's like random, Mom, you've seen a couple of times. Nope.
09:39:54 That's not the person right away to word. Vomit your whole story. You're dipping your toe in the water and seeing their responses.
09:40:02 So you can judge like. Do I trust this? Do I not trust this? How much can I share.
09:40:09 With this person, and even just sharing your stories that carry some shame, will help you release some of that shame.
09:40:20 Yeah.
09:40:20 But I I do like the idea that you just mentioned of like, maybe this is Bernie's idea, so I don't know who to give credit to, but to like pay attention, to like how someone is responding.
09:40:31 To what you're saying before. You just kind of say everything.
09:40:36 Because.
09:40:38 Yeah, you don't want to walk away from a conversation being like, why did I say that like, I don't trust this person.
09:40:45 And now their reaction has influenced another domino effect of emotions that are like arising in me.
09:40:52 Yeah, it's it's protecting yourself, and, like you were saying, is redeveloping that sense of your boundaries and your internal.
09:41:01 Feelings of safety, and so.
09:41:04 That that dipping the toe in the water is.
09:41:07 So helpful.
09:41:08 Because then, if somebody does respond with one of those horrible things like Gosh! If that happened to me, I would have left the 1st time.
09:41:17 Yeah, it's not helpful to hear.
09:41:18 Right then it's like, Thank you. Have a nice day. It's so nice and warm and sunny today, and those are your conversations about the weather. It's not about anything deep. You know that that person is not going to be your person.
09:41:30 And so it gives you just a little indicator of.
09:41:34 Okay, they they don't actually get any of my story.
09:41:37 We're talking about the weather. But then this person seemed really curious, and.
09:41:42 Thoughtful, and didn't say something horrible.
09:41:45 So the next time I I will continue, and just see where this can go.
09:41:53 Yeah.
09:41:53 Yeah, I think redeveloping that internal trust is really important, because I would imagine someone that's also coming out of this position. Who's or anybody who's experienced trauma might find that their compass is off, and so they keep checking in with other people and like what to do and how to do it, and then they get, maybe, like 10 different stories of how to resolve their issue, and then.
09:42:18 Like overwhelmed.
09:42:20 By that information, and then are even more paralyzed of like how to make a choice of how to proceed. But if you.
09:42:30 Know that you can trust like one or 2 people, or maybe 3 or 4, and only get feedback from those people you could then, like, discern like, okay, based on this feedback and based on my own opinions, like, I can make this decision and again, further develop that like inner trust, I imagine, as part of the process, that a lot of these women go through.
09:42:50 Yeah, and something I I love to be able to share with the survivors I work with is you.
09:42:58 No better than anyone else.
09:43:01 About how to help your kids.
09:43:04 About what your ex partner is gonna do about how to stay safe. It sounds backwards all the time when I'm talking to like professionals about it. And I'm like.
09:43:12 This victim of domestic violence actually knows.
09:43:15 Better than you how they can stay safe.
09:43:18 They're like, wait, that does like doesn't feel like it makes sense.
09:43:22 But you do, you absolutely know? Because, as.
09:43:26 Unfortunately, and fortunately your nervous system has developed the frameworks and the networks to keep you safe.
09:43:35 And so you know. By the way, the you know your partner comes home. They throw the mail on the table.
09:43:41 You're nervous system already computes like a computer. This is what I need to do tonight to stay safer.
09:43:48 Like you already know. And so we, as professionals.
09:43:53 Need to tap in to survivors more than we do.
09:43:58 And I think even then, if we are.
09:44:01 Asking. You know their expertise, and what.
09:44:05 What they predict will happen.
09:44:08 They're right on.
09:44:09 Right, they are almost always right on. And so then it's okay. You know this. Now, how can I support you in our next step?
09:44:17 And so I, you know, and so often think, that they are completely worthless, incapable of all the things.
09:44:25 And yet that is like.
09:44:27 The best source of information is within.
09:44:31 Yeah.
09:44:32 Well, I hope that through the work that they do not only with you, but.
09:44:38 In the community that you have. Hopefully, all women can.
09:44:42 Get back to that place of that self trust and that self empowerment of note, of.
09:44:47 Them, knowing that they do know what's best rather than feeling like.
09:44:51 Lost and confused. And they're.
09:44:53 Journey, to to heal.
09:44:55 Yeah, yeah, it's amazing getting to see that and getting to see.
09:45:01 Them support each other, getting them. It moves from this.
09:45:04 You know, place of where a lot of people call like neediness like it's they seem to where they're just consulting right? They're not asking for advice. It's just a consult, you know. Consult of like, hey? This is what I'm thinking of doing this, what, how? I'm thinking of writing this message.
09:45:19 Okay. Good. Check.
09:45:22 To then them being like, Hey, I wrote this method right? Not needing to check in like I wrote this message like the outcome.
09:45:28 And so just getting to see that process is.
09:45:31 Awesome. And as a therapist we get to see kind of that trauma work and that process of them moving from.
09:45:37 You know their neural networks that we're talking about like growing new.
09:45:43 New pathways of of safety and confidence and boundaries, and all of those things.
09:45:49 And so yeah, getting to see that progress.
09:45:52 In both places. It's just an honor. And so amazing. So why am I passionate about doing this? Because of that?
09:45:59 That's why, cause I get to see that.
09:46:03 Yeah, that's great. Yeah. So.
09:46:06 Before we have to wrap up. I was hoping you could share with people that are listening, how they can find you and what you have going on. So if anyone is interested in working with you or being involved in your community that they can tap in.
09:46:20 Yeah. So the community is, it's known as the rising beyond community. The business is actually called rising beyond power and control. But it's called the right. If people know it as the rising beyond community. Stephanie, I'll have my website. But it's www, dot rising beyond pc.com. That's the best way to get all of the things there's free resources on there. If you are stuck and need legal, if you.
09:46:45 You are stuck and need parenting, you're stuck and need some trauma.
09:46:49 Related information. That is probably the best place to go. And then I also have a podcast it's called the Rising beyond podcast and.
09:47:01 I share kind of the nitty, gritty details of how to share messages like how to respond.
09:47:08 To your ex partner and your co-parenting app.
09:47:10 How to make sure you have a loophole. Free parenting plan.
09:47:15 And then some of the more therapeutic things. So it's definitely the logistical and therapeutic. I have some amazing guests on there as well, that are really well known in the field that share their insights as well. And then you could find me on Instagram rising beyond PC,
09:47:32 And then, if you're in Colorado and you want therapeutic services, which is different than the community based.
09:47:41 Program. I'm at our vata therapy solutionscom.
09:47:46 Well, thank you so much.
09:47:46 And I am clearly in Arvada, which is like a city in Colorado.
09:47:51 Well, thank you so much for taking time to talk with us, talk with me today, and share with our listeners what you do, and the importance of the work that you're doing. I really think.
09:48:01 That women are all around.
09:48:03 Learn from listening to themselves and trusting themselves as well as like.
09:48:09 Stepping away from toxic.
09:48:13 Protecting both themselves and their children, I think, is really important for all women.
09:48:19 Who have children, or even for themselves. So thank you again for yeah, joining us.
09:48:24 Yeah.
09:48:25 Thank you for having me, and I hope that it resonates with somebody out there.